So, should you get your PhD? w/ Dr. Ellis

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Hey, welcome. This is episode nine. In this episode, I have the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Crystal Ellis. She has her PhD in genetics and she teaches in the biology department at MCP Jess university in Boston. She was my personal mentor throughout my sophomore to senior years of college. She has helped so many pre-med students like she has helped me. If you would like to learn more about her journey to getting her PhD and beyond then keep on listening.

Hi crystal. It's so nice to have you here.

Hi, Kinza so nice to hear your voice.

Thank you. How are you doing?

I'm okay. Doing pretty good. Can't complain has the online transition from being a professor.

It's got its challenges, but there's, there's a few benefits. It's mostly a management issue, but I'm still able to teach a little bit like on camera. So I'm still able to see some of those awesome faces that I missed so much, so.

Oh, that's nice.

It's always a management issue.

Yeah. Yep.

So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? Who are you, where did you get your PhD? What did you get it in? And just like a quick summary of your journey to where you are now, maybe from like post-college

Okay. Yeah, I can do that. Um, okay. So I went to, so as an undergrad, I went to Stonehill College in Massachusetts. Um, and I majored in biology. Got my bachelor's there. Um, then I moved to, and so right during the end of that experience, like where did the end I applied to graduate schools? I think I applied to four graduate schools and got into two, um, and decided to go to the University of New Hampshire to pursue a PhD. Um, my path is a little bit all over the place actually. Um, so it sounds already like, I am just a straight shot to PhD, but while I was in graduate school, experienced a lot of, sort of, I did a lot of reflection, um, in graduate school that quite honestly, I probably could have benefited more doing as an undergrad before jumping into grad school. Um, but got really sort of discouraged by the pace and some of the details about my project while I was pursuing my PhD at UNH. And so two years into my PhD program, I actually alerted my, um, advisor that I wanted to get a master's instead. Um, it was right around that time where I started teaching. Uh, so I started to teach as part of my job as a graduate student. So in sciences, typically when you go to graduate school, if it's a traditional thesis program, um, you either can't, you have to go full time and do research and attend classes. Um, and sometimes your principal investigator. So your advisor can support you with money, um, to help you do your research, but other times, uh, money is not so available. And so you have to support yourself and your paycheck through teaching for the university. Um, and so I started getting involved with teaching the lab sections of like biology classes and microbiology classes, but it wasn't until I started teaching the recitations for my genetics classes, um, that I started to get really interested in teaching. Um, and then I found towards the end of that year, when I first started teaching genetics, recitation that not only had my class actually grown. So I started with 15 students and ended the semester with 28. So other students from other recitations started to attend mine because mine were getting the reputation for being helpful. Um, and I also found myself like private tutoring, students who had trouble. And so I was spending far more time on that than I was on my own research. And so my advisor approached me and said, Hey, I'm really glad you found your passion, but you need to get back in the lab if you have any chance of pursuing this passion so that you can graduate. Um, and so it was like in my third year of grad school that I got bit by the teaching bug and then re-applied to the PhD program. Um, and then got my PhD in 2011, I believe it was. So I had to get my master's first and finish that until, um, be in order to go onto the PhD program and then got my PhD.

Okay. So that's a, an amazing journey. It sounds like you discovered a lot more passions, which you are pursuing now, which is great to hear since you are a professor, but what was the main deciding factor that made you realize you wanted to get your PhD? Especially because like, I know personally when people ask me like what they, what they should do, should they go into nursing PhD, PA like it's all within the science field and a lot of people wonder like how to kind of differentiate the different fields. So what was the one thing that made you basically pick PhD over everything else?

Yeah, so, um, when I was an undergrad at Stonehill college, um, I, my mentor was professor Roger Genome. Um, and I actually was pretty directionless as an undergrad and didn't really understand what I wanted to do after I graduated. And honestly didn't give it quite enough thought. And so, as the, as the end of my academic career center to approach, I, I didn't see the writing on the wall. I wasn't as nervous as I really should have been about really having no plan. Um, and it wasn't until my advisor came to me and said, you know, you're pretty good at genetics. You're doing really well in my class. Have you considered graduate school? And I said, no, I dont know what that is. And so he told me a little bit about it. Um, and so I kind of applied blindly to PhD programs in genetics and microbiology. So those were my passions, not really totally knowing what I was going to do with that, which is actually the wrong thing to do. Um, if you're going to apply to a PhD program, it's best, you know, what you're planning to do with that PhD once you get it. And I honestly didn't, which is why my path is so all over the place at the beginning of graduate school. Um, but it wasn't until, and so I wanted to pursue science because I knew I liked it, but I honestly didn't know what I was going to do with a PhD in that program, which is why I second guessed myself. Um, it wasn't until I began teaching as a graduate student that I really found my passion for that. So what made me decide to go to PhD, frankly, my advisor said I should. Um, but wasn't you just want the best piece of it? I mean, honestly it wasn't the greatest advice because I floundered my first two years in graduate school because I didn't understand what my end goal was. Um, and so I, you know, like sort of jumping ahead, but if there's a little bit of advice, if you're trying to figure out what you want to do, um, you have to kind of explore your options as an undergrad, um, and maybe take a year off before making that decision to sort of explore what's out there. Um, yeah.

And a lot of people look down on that year off and I see that a lot right now where a lot of people, even myself, I really looked down on the whole gap year and I was like, no, like that's not something I can do is just not an option. And I think a lot of people go into it with that mindset, but it is really, you know, advantages to you if you just take it off.

Yeah. I mean, I would've, I would've found my passion without all of that added pressure of you're already in a PhD program make it work. So I would have found that passion before being under that pressure. And honestly, I would have finished my degree faster had I had had I had more direction when I started the program. So yeah.

So how long does it take to do your PhD and how long did it take you?

If you go, if you apply to a PhD program and you start your graduate school experience in a PhD program that will typically take about four to five years to complete. Um, if you start a master's program that typically takes about two to three years to complete. So, because I had to do both because I, you know, I asked if I could get a master's and then changed my mind a second time and they were like, nice try. You need to get your master's first before you, before you're allowed to get into the PhD program. So the combined total of me getting my master's and my PhD took seven years total. So it took about three and four. Um, so three years from my master's four years for my PhD.

That makes sense. So if you want to, if you already know what you want, you can just do the combined masters or like grad school plus PhD and four to five years. Yeah.

So if you just apply and get in as a PhD student from the beginning, then it takes about four to five years. Yeah. But if you get your masters first and then your PhD, you're looking at, you know, seven to eight years.

Oh, got you. I didn't know that. So to become a professor now, like, do you, if I wanted to be a professor I've only gotten to med school, I don't have my PhD in anything in the future. So like, what do you, what credentials do you need if you ever want to go back to a college university or medical school?

Great question, actually. So getting into that role is really hard. Um, so there's a lot of people with PhDs that want to teach, um, but have varying levels of experience actually teaching firsthand. Um, so when I graduated with my PhD, I, um, I got a postdoc, which I don't know if your listeners know what a postdoc is, but it's basically,

I'm not even verifying. Um,

Postdoc is essentially on the job training for somebody who already has a PhD. And so you've proved your ability to be resourceful. Do research, speak about technical information to broad audiences, but you're not really totally equipped to design, like have your own lab and ask your own questions yet. And so you start to do that process as a post-doc where you are given a little bit more freedom. You're also given a little bit more pay. Um, and so you're given more freedom to explore a few more options in the field that you choose, but still under the guise of somebody else's lab. And so I worked for dr. Jason Harris and dr. Regina rock at Mass General Hospital as a post-doc. And so they hired me to help them solve some questions related to innate immune responses to Vibrio cholera, which is a bacteria I currently study. Um, and then I brought, so the reason they hired me is because I did a lot of evolution work and they were interested in breaking into the field of cholera evolution. Um, but didn't really exactly know how to get into it and had all these existing problems that they needed to answer to. And so they hired me to help with the existing problems, but also to expand their program, looking at evolution of different phenotypes in cholera or different traits of cholera. Um, and so I was able to dabble a little bit, you know, I was able to create my own experiments, ask my own questions, but I did it under the safety of somebody else's lab and somebody else's guidance so that I could get better at that skill. Um, that was really a research trajectory though. And so going down that route meant I was probably going to end up in a job, um, at a company doing research or, um, research and development. And I didn't want to do that. I wanted to teach. And so in addition to my postdoc responsibilities, I also had to seek out other opportunities at universities in Boston to teach. So I taught microbiology lab at Mass College of Pharmacy. So MC PHS. Um, I also taught the microbiology labs at Harvard medical school to, I think, first year medical students, when they were taking their microbiology section, I taught their labs. Um, and then I started doing adjunct professor at MCP. So I formally applied to be an adjunct professor. And through that role, I started teaching my own course, um, which was genetics actually. Um, so once I was able to prove that I could teach my own course and lead a whole class and manage all of my own stuff, that's when I started to get back. So when I was applying to professor jobs, so I worked my butt off, I mean, I was working 60 hour weeks between fulfilling my responsibilities as a postdoc and also doing these additional teaching opportunities to build my teaching resume. Um, luckily a job opened up at Mass College of Pharmacy and I applied for it. There were 200 other applicants. Um, I made the short list for phone interviews, and then I was up against four other, um, final applicants when I came in and did my interview, which was an eight hour interview all day long.

Wow. So becoming a professor is so incredible. Yeah, yeah.

Eight hours.

Yeah. If you're curious about that, um, that was basically, I met with the deans individually. I met with the chairs of the department individually. They asked me variety of questions. Then I gave a lecture to the whole department. So I had to actually demonstrate my teaching skills to the other faculty. And then they gave me feedback. And then I did a round table interview where 10 faculty members volunteer to sit in a room with me. And then each of them got a chance to ask me different questions, very similar actually to a med school interview. Um, and then I think that was it. And so that, yeah, that took about eight, six to eight.

I don't know that that time adds up there. Wow. So you start, I'm just going to quickly summarize that. So you start with getting your PhD, you were interested in science research, you got a postdoc position after completing your PhD in a lab at MGH in Boston. And while you were doing that, you still wanted to teach. So you went the lab route to, because you're a, post-doc in a lab you were able to apply for the microbiome labs at Harvard and MCPHS.

Yeah.

And really when you're an adjunct, um, the type of teaching opportunities you're given as an adjunct professor, or, um, as like, uh, a non, you know, like if you don't have a formal faculty position you're given lab labs to teach mostly. Um, yeah. Yeah. And I had experienced teaching labs at UNH as part of my graduate degree too. So they could, they knew that I knew what I was doing in a lab. They just didn't want to take a risk on me teaching my own class. Um, I was at MCC. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. So, um, I know you talked a little bit about your mentor in college, but who would you say was your number one mentor for like your personal growth? It could be, it could be your academic growth, or it could really just be your personal growth as a person, as a professor. Who would you say that is? So that's a tricky one. Um, I, I had various mentors at different stages of my academic career. Um, I also had some personal mentors which were mostly family and, um, like cousins of mine that were further advanced in their careers, but I’m the only scientist in my family. Um, so there wasn't really anyone there to help me with the science aspect of things. Just more like time management, anxiety management, that kind of stuff. My family was very helpful with that in terms of my career development, probably the most influential person is, um, professor Roger Genome, from Stonehill college. I kept a lifelong relationship with him, um, professional relationship with him as I progressed through my graduate career. And so I would occasionally check in with him and say, Hey, how you're doing. This is what I'm up to. And he would tell me what he was up to. And so we just kept the conversation going, um, after college. And he would give me some advice about, um, you know, opportunities to apply for as a postdoc and things. And then, um, when I was a post-doc, I mean, really your mentors are your, your, um, the people you work for in the lab. And so I had a graduate school mentor. He helped me some, um, I had a postdoc mentor. They helped me some, but really the person who was really there for me, most of the way through my academic development and career development was Roger Genome. And it's come full circle now because he's actually currently a Dean at Mass College of Pharmacy were out of the faculty member. And so now we are colleagues you guys, I mean, like he gives, he gives me pretty real advice. He's not one to sugarcoat anything he taught sort of tell it, tells it like it is, um, which can be tough to hear sometimes, but really useful, um, because it helps you grow when you hear, you know, your response to criticism is one of the things that you are sort of, um, you know, judged on as you move through your academic career. And so if you're constantly responding to criticism like, that's not what I think that's what you think, and that's your opinion, then you're not going to grow. Um, so you have to really, you know, hear that criticism react to it, reflect on it and then change your behavior moving forward. And so he was probably the most influential in sort of refining that skill for sure.

No, that's amazing. And before we move on to the last question I've prepared for you, I do want to just emphasize for our listeners how important it is to have a mentor. I'm sure some of you guys who are listening right now, don't have one and it takes you have to be vulnerable kind of to, to get one. So I was always very nervous and shy around professors. I didn't know how to approach them. I didn't know really what questions to come to class with. Cause I was the type of person that was like, Oh, it's fine. Like, I'll ask a friend who understands the material better or I'll just Google it and YouTube it and I'll get the answer to my question. So I always had a hard time forming those relationships and I really, to this day would not, I would not be able to say that I have Dr. Ellis as a mentor if I hadn't gone to her office, like right after the first day of class. So I really want our listeners to know that they need to make that first step to perform these relationships. And they really bring you so far into your career. I got my first really important research position because of my connections with dr. Ellis and, you know, the networking that I made personally, like following even our relationships. So it makes a huge difference. And I would say like, the reason why I got to medical school was because of this mentor-mentee relationship. So I really just wanted to emphasize that and say, thank you even on air to you for like all the growth that.

Yeah. I mean, my absolute pleasure. This is something I care very deeply about mentorship because I wouldn't be where I am if it weren't for the various mentors I've had along my career too, you know, um, Roger was the one that was probably the most influential and the most consistent, but I have had several mentors over the years. And currently in academics, you are assigned a faculty mentor when you first start your job. And so my faculty mentor at the university is Dr. Susan Gorman and the advice and support I have gotten from her. She's a wonderful person and has been so influential in helping me, um, design my courses, you know, um, talk to my students, you know, manage my time, um, get promoted. All of these things have been, I've been successful at because of the advice I'm getting from my faculty mentor. And so I still have a mentor at this time, a couple, um, and you know, I'm, I'm getting up there. So it's, it's important to maintain those for sure. And yeah, my pleasure being your mentor. Absolutely. My pleasure.

Thank you. So my last question for you is what is one very, I know you've given a lot of great advice, but once what is one very specific piece of advice that you would leave our listeners with today? It could be related to medicine science, your career, or completely unrelated, just like some life advice that has made a significant positive contribution.

Yeah, I, um, I've got a great one for you. Actually. It's advice that's more for, it's like a life advice kind of thing, but it applies and permeates so many different parts of my life that I come back to it often. And so this is advice that was given to me by one of my previous mentors. And she said to me, and this was about when I was overwhelmed in graduate school. And wasn't really sure it was like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to do all of this. And even if I got it all done, I don't think I'll pass my qualifying exams. And even if I do that, I don't think anyone's going to hire me. And so she heard all of this and she said, look, if you dwell in the past, it's essentially like, you're leaning, you're standing up, but you're leaning way far back. And if you dwell too much in the past and lean too far back, you will fall over. If you are standing up and you're dwelling too much on what could happen and what will happen in the future, you're leaning too far forward and you will fall forward. And so what you need to do is try to control and dwell on what's happening right now today. And so that way you're standing up, right? And there's no chance you'll fall back or you'll fall forward. And so it was just this lesson in be present and stay present. It's important to plan of course, but if you dwell too much in worry too much on what could happen, or it might not happen, you lose focus on what you can control today. If you'd well too much on what you did wrong in the past, you know, a test that you bombed or an opportunity that you missed, then you're going to miss opportunities and bomb tests that are happening today. And so this kind of advice really helped me in lots of different ways, not just to manage stress and anxiety from everyday life, but also when I'm faced, like I am today with a to-do list that is a mile long. I have to find ways to prioritize that. It's like, what if I can't get that whole list done? Well, that's okay. As long as I can get what's done, what's like has to be done today, done today, then I'm okay. Then I have succeeded. And then I'll worry about that tomorrow when you wake up tomorrow and have to look at that list again, but it's just a way to sort of manage your expectations, manage your anxiety, and still remain productive and get in the face of a giant long list of things to do. You can still be productive as long as you stay present. And so that's, that's my advice for, for lots of different reasons.

That's wonderful advice. I've never really heard like a good variation of that even. I've never, that's new to me and I'm sure it's new to a lot of our listeners. So thank you so much for sharing that and stay with me. I got that piece of advice when I was two years old.

Oh, well, that's great. I'm 23. So that's going to stay with me then. Thank you so much for sharing that. And thank you so much for joining us today, Crystal. I'm sure a lot of people here gained a lot of valuable advice regarding just not only their career path, but just also where they are in their own personal growth. If you guys have enjoyed this podcast, make sure you hit subscribe. So you don't miss any new episodes released every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Also, if you've learned one little thing from the show, I would really appreciate it. If you could leave a rating and review, it means a lot to me and I read them all, see you in the next one. Okay.